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	<title>Comments on: Reply to Andy Price&#8217;s &#8220;Communalism or caricature&#8221;</title>
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	<description>negating the negation since 2005</description>
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		<title>By: Eirik Eiglad</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator>Eirik Eiglad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-429</guid>
		<description>Hello,

I just wanted to inform readers of Negations that we have now published the first part of my reply to Chuck Morse. The whole essay is titled &quot;Measures of Failure and Success.&quot; The first part deal mainly with Morse&#039;s accusations that Bookchin was an idealist and a voluntarist, and the necessary presentation of the historical perspectives of social ecology. This discussion I think is necessary to fully explore Morse&#039;s superficial and distorted presentation of the legacy Murray Bookchin left us.

You will find the essay here: www.communalism.net

Solidarity,
Eirik Eiglad
editor@communalism.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,</p>
<p>I just wanted to inform readers of Negations that we have now published the first part of my reply to Chuck Morse. The whole essay is titled &#8220;Measures of Failure and Success.&#8221; The first part deal mainly with Morse&#8217;s accusations that Bookchin was an idealist and a voluntarist, and the necessary presentation of the historical perspectives of social ecology. This discussion I think is necessary to fully explore Morse&#8217;s superficial and distorted presentation of the legacy Murray Bookchin left us.</p>
<p>You will find the essay here: <a href="http://www.communalism.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.communalism.net</a></p>
<p>Solidarity,<br />
Eirik Eiglad<br />
<a href="mailto:editor@communalism.net">editor@communalism.net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rob Augman</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Augman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-425</guid>
		<description>Hi Chuck,
I&#039;ve been trying to keep up on the discussion ever since you sent your essay around. I think you bring up a lot of good points, which should be developed further. The question of voluntarism and Murray&#039;s lack of writing on the topic of race and racism, being prime examples.
In my view, he made many important innovations on Marxism and anarchism that are extremely relevant for today. And I think many who were influenced by social ecology have gone on to develop analyzes based on Murray&#039;s work. Some of whom still relate closely to his work, and others who have moved further away. This was always seen at the Institute for Social Ecology during every summer program.
But it is glaring to see how little he touched on the topic of race and racism. And this is peculiar, because his intention was not limited to developing Marxism and anarchism in a general sense, but rather developing a political project relevant to the situation in the United States in particular. Libertarian Municipalism therefore, relies heavily on an examination of the democratic potentialities within the local government institutions of the U.S. His historical research then also focuses on the particular development of the state apparatus, and its hierarchicalization. (is that a word?)
He always condemned exclusions from the political sphere, whether based on gender, ethnicity, and &quot;race.&quot; And of course his vision for a free and participatory space of politics was strongly against such exclusions.
He sought to reclaim or retain the democratic elements of these institutions for an emancipatory project. And he was often critiqued for this. These institutions were historically exclusive, and remain so to this day. They can not be reclaimed or even thought of in terms of an emancipatory trajectory, it was often argued.
I think this is an ongoing and critical discussion, with no easy answer. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s possible to view such institutions as simply &quot;having their flaws&quot; which &quot;need to be improved.&quot; The question should be asked: What was the relationship between early American self-government *and* its racial, gender, and religious exclusions?
I tend to think Murray downplayed the relationship. But I also think there was an all too simple rejection of his basic thesis from his critics. This would be a great area for continued discussion and research.
Gotta run. Thanks for the discussion.
-Rob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chuck,<br />
I&#8217;ve been trying to keep up on the discussion ever since you sent your essay around. I think you bring up a lot of good points, which should be developed further. The question of voluntarism and Murray&#8217;s lack of writing on the topic of race and racism, being prime examples.<br />
In my view, he made many important innovations on Marxism and anarchism that are extremely relevant for today. And I think many who were influenced by social ecology have gone on to develop analyzes based on Murray&#8217;s work. Some of whom still relate closely to his work, and others who have moved further away. This was always seen at the Institute for Social Ecology during every summer program.<br />
But it is glaring to see how little he touched on the topic of race and racism. And this is peculiar, because his intention was not limited to developing Marxism and anarchism in a general sense, but rather developing a political project relevant to the situation in the United States in particular. Libertarian Municipalism therefore, relies heavily on an examination of the democratic potentialities within the local government institutions of the U.S. His historical research then also focuses on the particular development of the state apparatus, and its hierarchicalization. (is that a word?)<br />
He always condemned exclusions from the political sphere, whether based on gender, ethnicity, and &#8220;race.&#8221; And of course his vision for a free and participatory space of politics was strongly against such exclusions.<br />
He sought to reclaim or retain the democratic elements of these institutions for an emancipatory project. And he was often critiqued for this. These institutions were historically exclusive, and remain so to this day. They can not be reclaimed or even thought of in terms of an emancipatory trajectory, it was often argued.<br />
I think this is an ongoing and critical discussion, with no easy answer. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s possible to view such institutions as simply &#8220;having their flaws&#8221; which &#8220;need to be improved.&#8221; The question should be asked: What was the relationship between early American self-government *and* its racial, gender, and religious exclusions?<br />
I tend to think Murray downplayed the relationship. But I also think there was an all too simple rejection of his basic thesis from his critics. This would be a great area for continued discussion and research.<br />
Gotta run. Thanks for the discussion.<br />
-Rob</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-424</guid>
		<description>Hi Vincent, 

Thanks for the comment. My observations about Bookchin and racism and white supremacy have generated a lot of debate, so I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue more fully. 

To reply, I’m going to have to echo what Mike S. said: Murray did not: “address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy.” Or, to put it slightly differently, he did not advance an analysis of the meaning, origins, or trajectory of white supremacy or racism and did not examine how racism and white supremacy impact the forms of hierarchy that he did analyze. 

In my view, this absence in his work invalidates his claim that he had provided a general theory of “the emergence and dissolution of hierarchy” (to site the subtitle of the &lt;i&gt;iEcology of Freedom&lt;/i&gt;). It is not possible to understand the modern world without a strong and highly articulated analysis of racism and white supremacy. These are not secondary issues. 

Vincent says: “Let&#039;s move on! Improve, go further that he did. This is our job, clearly.”

I support that statement wholeheartedly. However, to move on, I think we need to “identify Bookchin’s shortcomings and surpass them in an analysis that balances both praise and critique” (to quote the conclusion of the above article). Don’t you agree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vincent, </p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. My observations about Bookchin and racism and white supremacy have generated a lot of debate, so I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue more fully. </p>
<p>To reply, I’m going to have to echo what Mike S. said: Murray did not: “address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy.” Or, to put it slightly differently, he did not advance an analysis of the meaning, origins, or trajectory of white supremacy or racism and did not examine how racism and white supremacy impact the forms of hierarchy that he did analyze. </p>
<p>In my view, this absence in his work invalidates his claim that he had provided a general theory of “the emergence and dissolution of hierarchy” (to site the subtitle of the <i>iEcology of Freedom</i>). It is not possible to understand the modern world without a strong and highly articulated analysis of racism and white supremacy. These are not secondary issues. </p>
<p>Vincent says: “Let&#8217;s move on! Improve, go further that he did. This is our job, clearly.”</p>
<p>I support that statement wholeheartedly. However, to move on, I think we need to “identify Bookchin’s shortcomings and surpass them in an analysis that balances both praise and critique” (to quote the conclusion of the above article). Don’t you agree?</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Gerber</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Gerber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-423</guid>
		<description>Mike S. said :

&quot;Chuck’s argument was that some like Murray, who attempted to develop a comprehensive vision of the world and how to change it, needed to address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy, AT LEAST SOMETIMES.&quot;

But he did. Not deeply enough for many, certainly. But he did. And what ? He was just a man. He cannot know and write about everything. He did a lot, more than anyone of us I would say, I won&#039;t be the one who tell him : you could have done more on this, you make a mistake that. Let&#039;s move on ! Improve, go further that he did. This is our job, clearly.

One last thing. It&#039;s really strange for me, each time I read some criticism of Bookchin I have this feeling that we didn&#039;t have read the same books. I just don&#039;t recognize anything.
It&#039;s not a theoretical point, mostly a communication one I would say. So many people reading the same text and so many ways of interpret it. Do we understand only what we want, making pre-theories on what we are going to read/see/watch ? I really believe so, and this is a great problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike S. said :</p>
<p>&#8220;Chuck’s argument was that some like Murray, who attempted to develop a comprehensive vision of the world and how to change it, needed to address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy, AT LEAST SOMETIMES.&#8221;</p>
<p>But he did. Not deeply enough for many, certainly. But he did. And what ? He was just a man. He cannot know and write about everything. He did a lot, more than anyone of us I would say, I won&#8217;t be the one who tell him : you could have done more on this, you make a mistake that. Let&#8217;s move on ! Improve, go further that he did. This is our job, clearly.</p>
<p>One last thing. It&#8217;s really strange for me, each time I read some criticism of Bookchin I have this feeling that we didn&#8217;t have read the same books. I just don&#8217;t recognize anything.<br />
It&#8217;s not a theoretical point, mostly a communication one I would say. So many people reading the same text and so many ways of interpret it. Do we understand only what we want, making pre-theories on what we are going to read/see/watch ? I really believe so, and this is a great problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-422</guid>
		<description>Rafa,
Nobody ever said anything about creating a hierarchy of oppressions, or privileging race over class. One of the criticisms of social ecology/ communalism is that the response to racism is woefully underdeveloped.  And, for reasons that I previously mentioned, this is important for social change in the US and globally for very apparent reasons.

And nobody is saying that you should solely write about racism and read anti-racist texts.  Absurd.

Also, I think that your point about Biehl, Heller, Tokar, and Munsterman having &quot;really good ideas about communalism and what it is&quot; is moot. As far as I know, they are not developing any communalist organizations or getting involved in local elections (as communalists, at least) or organizing town hall meetings (again, as communalists). I have to assume they must feel that radical social change is not as simple as it was made out to be in the Libertarian Municipalism: The Politics of Social Ecology, that the situation in the U.S. is much more complex...  (That&#039;s not to say that they&#039;re not doing good, important work.  I know Tokar has been at the forefront of the social critique of biofuels and has been working tirelessly to connect global climate change and radical social change.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafa,<br />
Nobody ever said anything about creating a hierarchy of oppressions, or privileging race over class. One of the criticisms of social ecology/ communalism is that the response to racism is woefully underdeveloped.  And, for reasons that I previously mentioned, this is important for social change in the US and globally for very apparent reasons.</p>
<p>And nobody is saying that you should solely write about racism and read anti-racist texts.  Absurd.</p>
<p>Also, I think that your point about Biehl, Heller, Tokar, and Munsterman having &#8220;really good ideas about communalism and what it is&#8221; is moot. As far as I know, they are not developing any communalist organizations or getting involved in local elections (as communalists, at least) or organizing town hall meetings (again, as communalists). I have to assume they must feel that radical social change is not as simple as it was made out to be in the Libertarian Municipalism: The Politics of Social Ecology, that the situation in the U.S. is much more complex&#8230;  (That&#8217;s not to say that they&#8217;re not doing good, important work.  I know Tokar has been at the forefront of the social critique of biofuels and has been working tirelessly to connect global climate change and radical social change.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mike S.</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-421</guid>
		<description>Rafa concludes:  

&quot;I totally support the anti-racist movement, that doesn’t mean I have to write about that or racism all of the time, or read anti-racist texts all of the time.&quot;

This is an obvious strawman.  No one has suggested that racism and anti-racism should be anyone&#039;s sole focus.  Chuck&#039;s argument was that some like Murray, who attempted to develop a comprehensive vision of the world and how to change it, needed to address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy, AT LEAST SOMETIMES.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafa concludes:  </p>
<p>&#8220;I totally support the anti-racist movement, that doesn’t mean I have to write about that or racism all of the time, or read anti-racist texts all of the time.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is an obvious strawman.  No one has suggested that racism and anti-racism should be anyone&#8217;s sole focus.  Chuck&#8217;s argument was that some like Murray, who attempted to develop a comprehensive vision of the world and how to change it, needed to address the particularities and complexities of race relations and white supremacy, AT LEAST SOMETIMES.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafa Grinfeld</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafa Grinfeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-420</guid>
		<description>I understand that it&#039;s not so simple for people living in the USA to have clear views on what communalism is, or on the extent in which it is linked to anti-racism. It mostly is a very contemporary and sometimes quite European thing. Many people in the North know much about it (Vermont, Canada, Scandinavia). It&#039;s important that people living south of those regions get a clearer view on it. (And early communalism was not a complex theory yet.)
Still, people like Janet Biehl, Chaia Heller, Brian Tokar and Peter Munsterman seem to have really good ideas about communalism and what it is. 
I deeply respect social anarchists, but I can not say that social anarchism always is that much  an authentic form of anarchism. I see contemporary anarchism as quite an individualistic thing, while it is sometimes difficult to comprehend the similarities and differences between social anarchism and individualist anarchism.
I think we should start to address the issue of classism more here in the West. I think many of the problems in the world are more the result of classism than of racism. Let there be no confusion about this : I totally support the anti-racist movement, that doesn&#039;t mean I have to write about that or racism all of the time, or read anti-racist texts all of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that it&#8217;s not so simple for people living in the USA to have clear views on what communalism is, or on the extent in which it is linked to anti-racism. It mostly is a very contemporary and sometimes quite European thing. Many people in the North know much about it (Vermont, Canada, Scandinavia). It&#8217;s important that people living south of those regions get a clearer view on it. (And early communalism was not a complex theory yet.)<br />
Still, people like Janet Biehl, Chaia Heller, Brian Tokar and Peter Munsterman seem to have really good ideas about communalism and what it is.<br />
I deeply respect social anarchists, but I can not say that social anarchism always is that much  an authentic form of anarchism. I see contemporary anarchism as quite an individualistic thing, while it is sometimes difficult to comprehend the similarities and differences between social anarchism and individualist anarchism.<br />
I think we should start to address the issue of classism more here in the West. I think many of the problems in the world are more the result of classism than of racism. Let there be no confusion about this : I totally support the anti-racist movement, that doesn&#8217;t mean I have to write about that or racism all of the time, or read anti-racist texts all of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-419</guid>
		<description>Oh!  And I forgot to also mention that this has a lot to do with Morse&#039;s criticism of voluntarism and the material conditions of social change.  But I hope that was obvious...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh!  And I forgot to also mention that this has a lot to do with Morse&#8217;s criticism of voluntarism and the material conditions of social change.  But I hope that was obvious&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-418</guid>
		<description>Rafa,
As far as I know, the authors that you list address European Nazism.  Applying the lessons learned from an analysis of European Nazism to contemporary racism both within the US and on a global scale is, to put it nicely, limiting.  The US situation is unique with our history as a settler state, slavery, aboriginal genocide, internment camps, lynching, segregation and Jim Crow, reservations, to contemporary racial disparities with regards to access to education, health care, housing, employment, healthy food, etc.  (And this list is woefully incomplete.)

It&#039;s this complexity that I think the communalist transitional strategy fails to address in the U.S. At best, if a communalist movement were ever to develop the only people who could participate fully would be those who have the luxury of not having to worry about meeting their immediate needs--mainly white, middle class folks... hardly democratic and hardly welcoming to people of color and people struggling to make ends meet, especially with the &quot;promise&quot; of a revolution (not in their lifetime, to boot!). Whereas Western European and Scandinavian welfare states help to alleviate a lot of these concerns regarding day-to-day survival, making participation in a movement for radical change such as communalism somewhat more likely.

I think this has a lot to do with why it is overwhelmingly European social ecologists and communalists (and maybe a Canadian or two) that take such great offense and go to such great lengths to defend Bookchin and dismiss criticism of him not adequately addressing racism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafa,<br />
As far as I know, the authors that you list address European Nazism.  Applying the lessons learned from an analysis of European Nazism to contemporary racism both within the US and on a global scale is, to put it nicely, limiting.  The US situation is unique with our history as a settler state, slavery, aboriginal genocide, internment camps, lynching, segregation and Jim Crow, reservations, to contemporary racial disparities with regards to access to education, health care, housing, employment, healthy food, etc.  (And this list is woefully incomplete.)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s this complexity that I think the communalist transitional strategy fails to address in the U.S. At best, if a communalist movement were ever to develop the only people who could participate fully would be those who have the luxury of not having to worry about meeting their immediate needs&#8211;mainly white, middle class folks&#8230; hardly democratic and hardly welcoming to people of color and people struggling to make ends meet, especially with the &#8220;promise&#8221; of a revolution (not in their lifetime, to boot!). Whereas Western European and Scandinavian welfare states help to alleviate a lot of these concerns regarding day-to-day survival, making participation in a movement for radical change such as communalism somewhat more likely.</p>
<p>I think this has a lot to do with why it is overwhelmingly European social ecologists and communalists (and maybe a Canadian or two) that take such great offense and go to such great lengths to defend Bookchin and dismiss criticism of him not adequately addressing racism.</p>
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		<title>By: Anarcho</title>
		<link>http://www.negations.net/reply-to-andy-prices-communalism-or-caricature/comment-page-1/#comment-417</link>
		<dc:creator>Anarcho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 08:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.negations.net/?p=154#comment-417</guid>
		<description>I have to say that I think that many followers of Bookchin are really sensitive to criticism of him. At times, I get the impression they think there is a massive conspiracy against him and his legacy. 

I would also suggest that Bookchin&#039;s break with anarchism showed Bookchin at his worse. There was extensive revisionism of his own history, in terms of him announcing that he was aware of the limitations of anarchism back in the 1980s. He kept that quiet, particularly in the many articles in the 1990s he wrote saying he was an anarchist and proud of it! Then there is the last two volumes of his &lt;b&gt;The Third Revolution&lt;/b&gt;. Volume 3, on Russia, was okay (if uncritical of vanguardism). Volume 4, on Spain, was terrible -- it came across as being written by someone ignorant of anarchism (not to mention in total contradiction to his &lt;b&gt;The Spanish Anarchists&lt;/b&gt;)

I explore some this these issues in my &lt;a href=&quot;http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/review-social-ecology-communalism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;review of Social Ecology and Communalism&lt;/a&gt;. 

Still, overall, Bookchin enriched anarchism greatly. He had his flaws, who doesn&#039;t? But it is a case of building on his best work. It is a shame he spent the last few years destroying his own legacy by becoming so anti-anarchist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say that I think that many followers of Bookchin are really sensitive to criticism of him. At times, I get the impression they think there is a massive conspiracy against him and his legacy. </p>
<p>I would also suggest that Bookchin&#8217;s break with anarchism showed Bookchin at his worse. There was extensive revisionism of his own history, in terms of him announcing that he was aware of the limitations of anarchism back in the 1980s. He kept that quiet, particularly in the many articles in the 1990s he wrote saying he was an anarchist and proud of it! Then there is the last two volumes of his <b>The Third Revolution</b>. Volume 3, on Russia, was okay (if uncritical of vanguardism). Volume 4, on Spain, was terrible &#8212; it came across as being written by someone ignorant of anarchism (not to mention in total contradiction to his <b>The Spanish Anarchists</b>)</p>
<p>I explore some this these issues in my <a href="http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/review-social-ecology-communalism" rel="nofollow">review of Social Ecology and Communalism</a>. </p>
<p>Still, overall, Bookchin enriched anarchism greatly. He had his flaws, who doesn&#8217;t? But it is a case of building on his best work. It is a shame he spent the last few years destroying his own legacy by becoming so anti-anarchist.</p>
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